Template:Sophokles' Oidipous Rex - Revision history

Paulreed: /* Psychoanalytical perspectives on Oidipous */

2019-11-18T14:07:25Z

Psychoanalytical perspectives on Oidipous

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	==Psychoanalytical perspectives on Oidipous==		==Psychoanalytical perspectives on Oidipous==
	===Oidipous did not actually kill Laios===		===Oidipous did not actually kill Laios===
	He did it!		He did it!

Paulreed: /* Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal */

2012-09-10T15:28:26Z

Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal

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	==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==		==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==
	{{#ask: ~~[[category:Greek Mythology]]~~ [[text::+]]		{{#ask: [[text::+]]

	}}		}}

Paulreed: /* Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal */

2012-09-10T15:20:20Z

Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal

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	==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==		==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==
			{{#ask: [[category:Greek Mythology]] [[text::+]]

			}}

	''From the article [[Aristotle#Aristotle Poetics\|Aristotle Poetics]]''		''From the article [[Aristotle#Aristotle Poetics\|Aristotle Poetics]]''
	In order for a plot to function, for instance in a tragedy there should be Catharsis through Reversal peripeteia and Recognition leading to a feeling of catharsis. Recoginition is the state by which we move from ignorance to knowledge, which leads to a reversal. The objective of the tragedy to engender of catharsis by exercising fear and pity through the agency of the play. If we take the examaple of Oidipous Rex the recognition and reversal are deployed in various ways. The recognition that he is the son of Laius and Jocasta leadsd to the plot reversal of gouging his eyes out, losing his kingdom and being banished. For the audience the Reversal is the reversal of expectations. We expect that when the messenger comes with news that he was the son Laius and a noble person in his own right the expectation of the messenger is that it is good news. But for us and Oidipous and ourselves the penny drops. Both he and ourselves are flawed. He is falwed becuase he has unknowingly brough shame to his family. We are flawed becuase we were causght out by the plot twist. We exorcise our feat and pity through Oidipous' actions and subsequent events. Aristotle does not mean for fear and pity to no longer be part of our psyche (as future analysts may have sought to do) He sees the feelings as inate and useful However, cartharsis allows us to better manage those emotons through the depiction in others (like plays). Aristotle is careful to explain that the plot twist should have a shock value in itself but as a consequence of the actions that cime before it and actions that will lead on from it.		In order for a plot to function, for instance in a tragedy there should be Catharsis through Reversal peripeteia and Recognition leading to a feeling of catharsis. Recoginition is the state by which we move from ignorance to knowledge, which leads to a reversal. The objective of the tragedy to engender of catharsis by exercising fear and pity through the agency of the play. If we take the examaple of Oidipous Rex the recognition and reversal are deployed in various ways. The recognition that he is the son of Laius and Jocasta leadsd to the plot reversal of gouging his eyes out, losing his kingdom and being banished. For the audience the Reversal is the reversal of expectations. We expect that when the messenger comes with news that he was the son Laius and a noble person in his own right the expectation of the messenger is that it is good news. But for us and Oidipous and ourselves the penny drops. Both he and ourselves are flawed. He is falwed becuase he has unknowingly brough shame to his family. We are flawed becuase we were causght out by the plot twist. We exorcise our feat and pity through Oidipous' actions and subsequent events. Aristotle does not mean for fear and pity to no longer be part of our psyche (as future analysts may have sought to do) He sees the feelings as inate and useful However, cartharsis allows us to better manage those emotons through the depiction in others (like plays). Aristotle is careful to explain that the plot twist should have a shock value in itself but as a consequence of the actions that cime before it and actions that will lead on from it.

Paulreed: /* Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal */

2012-09-10T15:02:55Z

Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal

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	==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==		==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==
	''From the article [[Aristotle#~~Aristole~~ Poetics\|Aristotle Poetics]]''		''From the article [[Aristotle#Aristotle Poetics\|Aristotle Poetics]]''
	In order for a plot to function, for instance in a tragedy there should be Catharsis through Reversal peripeteia and Recognition leading to a feeling of catharsis. Recoginition is the state by which we move from ignorance to knowledge, which leads to a reversal. The objective of the tragedy to engender of catharsis by exercising fear and pity through the agency of the play. If we take the examaple of Oidipous Rex the recognition and reversal are deployed in various ways. The recognition that he is the son of Laius and Jocasta leadsd to the plot reversal of gouging his eyes out, losing his kingdom and being banished. For the audience the Reversal is the reversal of expectations. We expect that when the messenger comes with news that he was the son Laius and a noble person in his own right the expectation of the messenger is that it is good news. But for us and Oidipous and ourselves the penny drops. Both he and ourselves are flawed. He is falwed becuase he has unknowingly brough shame to his family. We are flawed becuase we were causght out by the plot twist. We exorcise our feat and pity through Oidipous' actions and subsequent events. Aristotle does not mean for fear and pity to no longer be part of our psyche (as future analysts may have sought to do) He sees the feelings as inate and useful However, cartharsis allows us to better manage those emotons through the depiction in others (like plays). Aristotle is careful to explain that the plot twist should have a shock value in itself but as a consequence of the actions that cime before it and actions that will lead on from it.		In order for a plot to function, for instance in a tragedy there should be Catharsis through Reversal peripeteia and Recognition leading to a feeling of catharsis. Recoginition is the state by which we move from ignorance to knowledge, which leads to a reversal. The objective of the tragedy to engender of catharsis by exercising fear and pity through the agency of the play. If we take the examaple of Oidipous Rex the recognition and reversal are deployed in various ways. The recognition that he is the son of Laius and Jocasta leadsd to the plot reversal of gouging his eyes out, losing his kingdom and being banished. For the audience the Reversal is the reversal of expectations. We expect that when the messenger comes with news that he was the son Laius and a noble person in his own right the expectation of the messenger is that it is good news. But for us and Oidipous and ourselves the penny drops. Both he and ourselves are flawed. He is falwed becuase he has unknowingly brough shame to his family. We are flawed becuase we were causght out by the plot twist. We exorcise our feat and pity through Oidipous' actions and subsequent events. Aristotle does not mean for fear and pity to no longer be part of our psyche (as future analysts may have sought to do) He sees the feelings as inate and useful However, cartharsis allows us to better manage those emotons through the depiction in others (like plays). Aristotle is careful to explain that the plot twist should have a shock value in itself but as a consequence of the actions that cime before it and actions that will lead on from it.

Paulreed: /* Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal */

2012-09-10T15:02:01Z

Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:02, 10 September 2012
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	==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==		==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==
	''From the article [[Aristotle#Aristole Poetics]]		''From the article [[Aristotle#Aristole Poetics\|Aristotle Poetics]]''
	In order for a plot to function, for instance in a tragedy there should be Catharsis through Reversal peripeteia and Recognition leading to a feeling of catharsis. Recoginition is the state by which we move from ignorance to knowledge, which leads to a reversal. The objective of the tragedy to engender of catharsis by exercising fear and pity through the agency of the play. If we take the examaple of Oidipous Rex the recognition and reversal are deployed in various ways. The recognition that he is the son of Laius and Jocasta leadsd to the plot reversal of gouging his eyes out, losing his kingdom and being banished. For the audience the Reversal is the reversal of expectations. We expect that when the messenger comes with news that he was the son Laius and a noble person in his own right the expectation of the messenger is that it is good news. But for us and Oidipous and ourselves the penny drops. Both he and ourselves are flawed. He is falwed becuase he has unknowingly brough shame to his family. We are flawed becuase we were causght out by the plot twist. We exorcise our feat and pity through Oidipous' actions and subsequent events. Aristotle does not mean for fear and pity to no longer be part of our psyche (as future analysts may have sought to do) He sees the feelings as inate and useful However, cartharsis allows us to better manage those emotons through the depiction in others (like plays). Aristotle is careful to explain that the plot twist should have a shock value in itself but as a consequence of the actions that cime before it and actions that will lead on from it.		In order for a plot to function, for instance in a tragedy there should be Catharsis through Reversal peripeteia and Recognition leading to a feeling of catharsis. Recoginition is the state by which we move from ignorance to knowledge, which leads to a reversal. The objective of the tragedy to engender of catharsis by exercising fear and pity through the agency of the play. If we take the examaple of Oidipous Rex the recognition and reversal are deployed in various ways. The recognition that he is the son of Laius and Jocasta leadsd to the plot reversal of gouging his eyes out, losing his kingdom and being banished. For the audience the Reversal is the reversal of expectations. We expect that when the messenger comes with news that he was the son Laius and a noble person in his own right the expectation of the messenger is that it is good news. But for us and Oidipous and ourselves the penny drops. Both he and ourselves are flawed. He is falwed becuase he has unknowingly brough shame to his family. We are flawed becuase we were causght out by the plot twist. We exorcise our feat and pity through Oidipous' actions and subsequent events. Aristotle does not mean for fear and pity to no longer be part of our psyche (as future analysts may have sought to do) He sees the feelings as inate and useful However, cartharsis allows us to better manage those emotons through the depiction in others (like plays). Aristotle is careful to explain that the plot twist should have a shock value in itself but as a consequence of the actions that cime before it and actions that will lead on from it.

	==Psychoanalysis and Oidipous Rex==		==Psychoanalysis and Oidipous Rex==

Paulreed at 15:01, 10 September 2012

2012-09-10T15:01:23Z

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	==Oidipous the Scapegoat==		==Oidipous the Scapegoat==
	The myth of Oidipous is a metaphor for the ancient scapegoat ritual. The scapegoat ritual was practiced when a community was in a state of emergency e.g. in the grip of a plague or famine, and it involved expelling a [[term::Pharmakos]] (human scapegoat) from the town. The pharmakos was often a person of little consequence, such as a criminal or a cripple. The pharmakos would be led like a sacrificial animal to a sacred precinct and either killed or beaten and then ejected from the city, taking with it the evils and sins of the community and, thus, purifying the town. The Oidipous story parallels this practice quite closely, as he (technically a cripple) would normally be of little consequence to the city of Thebes. Furthermore, he is physically harmed, albeit by himself, and exiled from the city. It has been said (in Sophokles' version of the story) that when Laios' killer has been removed from Thebes the plague will abate, thus implying that Oidipous is taking with him the sins of the community, filling the role of the pharmakos and ending the crisis in the town.		The myth of Oidipous is a metaphor for the ancient scapegoat ritual. The scapegoat ritual was practiced when a community was in a state of emergency e.g. in the grip of a plague or famine, and it involved expelling a [[term::Pharmakos]] (human scapegoat) from the town. The pharmakos was often a person of little consequence, such as a criminal or a cripple. The pharmakos would be led like a sacrificial animal to a sacred precinct and either killed or beaten and then ejected from the city, taking with it the evils and sins of the community and, thus, purifying the town. The Oidipous story parallels this practice quite closely, as he (technically a cripple) would normally be of little consequence to the city of Thebes. Furthermore, he is physically harmed, albeit by himself, and exiled from the city. It has been said (in Sophokles' version of the story) that when Laios' killer has been removed from Thebes the plague will abate, thus implying that Oidipous is taking with him the sins of the community, filling the role of the pharmakos and ending the crisis in the town.

			==Aristotle: Oidipous and the role of Recognition and Reversal==
			''From the article [[Aristotle#Aristole Poetics]]
			In order for a plot to function, for instance in a tragedy there should be Catharsis through Reversal peripeteia and Recognition leading to a feeling of catharsis. Recoginition is the state by which we move from ignorance to knowledge, which leads to a reversal. The objective of the tragedy to engender of catharsis by exercising fear and pity through the agency of the play. If we take the examaple of Oidipous Rex the recognition and reversal are deployed in various ways. The recognition that he is the son of Laius and Jocasta leadsd to the plot reversal of gouging his eyes out, losing his kingdom and being banished. For the audience the Reversal is the reversal of expectations. We expect that when the messenger comes with news that he was the son Laius and a noble person in his own right the expectation of the messenger is that it is good news. But for us and Oidipous and ourselves the penny drops. Both he and ourselves are flawed. He is falwed becuase he has unknowingly brough shame to his family. We are flawed becuase we were causght out by the plot twist. We exorcise our feat and pity through Oidipous' actions and subsequent events. Aristotle does not mean for fear and pity to no longer be part of our psyche (as future analysts may have sought to do) He sees the feelings as inate and useful However, cartharsis allows us to better manage those emotons through the depiction in others (like plays). Aristotle is careful to explain that the plot twist should have a shock value in itself but as a consequence of the actions that cime before it and actions that will lead on from it.

	==Psychoanalysis and Oidipous Rex==		==Psychoanalysis and Oidipous Rex==

Paulreed: /* Oidipous' Fate and Responsibility */

2012-06-14T12:29:25Z

Oidipous' Fate and Responsibility

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	==Oidipous' Fate and Responsibility==		==Oidipous' Fate and Responsibility==
	There has been much debate concerning the responsibility of Oedipus and the "fairness" of his punishment. In Greek tragedy and myth in general, it is the norm that someone will suffer some terrible fate as punishment for wrongdoing or some sacrilege. However, it seems as though Oidipous himself has done nothing to warrant the punishment of his awful fate. In fact, the citizens of Thebes in Sophokles' Oidipous the King revere him as the most intelligent of men and as a good ruler, even referring to him as a father. As a result, this story has often been read as a comment on the indiscriminate nature of fate, and that even the best of men can be cursed with an unfair fate, which even the gods are unable to divert. This suggestion would imply that Oidipous himself is not to blame for his actions, and thus deserves no punishment for them. An alternative explanation has already been given above, that it was not Oidipous himself who was cursed, but rather the entire line of Laios as payment for his rape . Still others suggest that Oedipus is allotted his fate as a pre-emptive penalty for the crimes proscribed in the prophecy, implying that he would have committed these atrocities whether they were fated or not, and thus the realisation he has committed them is fitting punishment for him. It can be agreed that Oidipous is not being punished for a simple, tangible crime as is the case with many tragic heroes of Greek myth.		There has been much debate concerning the responsibility of Oedipus and the "fairness" of his punishment. In Greek tragedy and myth in general, it is the norm that someone will suffer some terrible fate as punishment for wrongdoing or some sacrilege. However, it seems as though Oidipous himself has done nothing to warrant the punishment of his awful fate. In fact, the citizens of Thebes in Sophokles' Oidipous the King revere him as the most intelligent of men and as a good ruler, even referring to him as a father. As a result, this story has often been read as a comment on the indiscriminate nature of fate, and that even the best of men can be cursed with an unfair fate, which even the gods are unable to divert. This suggestion would imply that Oidipous himself is not to blame for his actions, and thus deserves no punishment for them. An alternative explanation has already been given above, that it was not Oidipous himself who was cursed, but rather the entire line of Laios as payment for his rape . Still others suggest that Oedipus is allotted his fate as a pre-emptive penalty for the crimes proscribed in the prophecy, implying that he would have committed these atrocities whether they were fated or not, and thus the realisation he has committed them is fitting punishment for him. It can be agreed that Oidipous is not being punished for a simple, tangible crime as is the case with many tragic heroes of Greek myth.

			===The notion of guilt and shame and Oidipous===
			Generally speaking we can say that guilt is an internal emotion which has the capacity for atonement, whereas shame is derision heaped on the victim by others. Whilst guilt can be seen as more of a modern and Christian phenomena becuase of the potential for atonement, shame is much more prevalent theme in classical literature. Oidipous is shamed for sleeping with his mother and killing his father. The shame is not lessened by the fact that he did not explicitly and knowingly do these acts yet it is still shameful. The shamed person's personal recourse is to hide away, (he is banished) which is exactly what Oidipous does. Also there is a less focus on atoning for what has happened and more on accepting punishment for the acts.

	==Oidipous the Scapegoat==		==Oidipous the Scapegoat==

Paulreed at 15:34, 27 February 2012

2012-02-27T15:34:56Z

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	Some examples		Some examples
	*Kings and ~~Quueens~~ = Mothers and Fathers		*Kings and Queens = Mothers and Fathers
	*Enclosed Spaces = Female body		*Enclosed Spaces = Female body
	*Gates, doors, ovens = Female genitals		*Gates, doors, ovens = Female genitals
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	Let us remember that we are brought into this story when it is essentially over. Oedipus has already killed his father and has already slept with his mother. Why the chronology in which it is presented? I believe because we are placed in the presence of difficult moral questions, without the ability to change the course of action before it happens. It is Oedipus's predicament that is so difficult, and causes us to question responsibility and fate if such exists.		Let us remember that we are brought into this story when it is essentially over. Oedipus has already killed his father and has already slept with his mother. Why the chronology in which it is presented? I believe because we are placed in the presence of difficult moral questions, without the ability to change the course of action before it happens. It is Oedipus's predicament that is so difficult, and causes us to question responsibility and fate if such exists.

	Freud didn't interpret the myth of Oedipus or of Medusa. He interpreted themes he saw in the myths to help explain some of his ideas about the mind. And I think it is important to know the difference.The 'castration complex' could be a different way of saying 'fear of loss of control or independence'. We are involved in an 'exploration of the complexities of human nature rather than reaching a definite conclusion'. This seems to one of the things that myth.		Freud didn't interpret the myth of Oedipus or of Medusa. He interpreted themes he saw in the myths to help explain some of his ideas about the mind. And I think it is important to know the difference.The 'castration complex' could be a different way of saying 'fear of loss of control or independence'. We are involved in an 'exploration of the complexities of human nature rather than reaching a definite conclusion'. This seems to one of the things that myth.<ref>http://www.unc.edu/~plmiller/writing/Oedipus_Rex_Revisited.pdf</ref>

	===Gerome's Napoleon and the Sphinx===		===Gerome's Napoleon and the Sphinx===

Paulreed at 15:20, 27 February 2012

2012-02-27T15:20:08Z

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	I'll say that subconsciously he did know but consciously did not and the unfolding events brought that realisation to the surface		I'll say that subconsciously he did know but consciously did not and the unfolding events brought that realisation to the surface

			===How Helpful is a Psychological Model for Understanding Oidipous Rex and Greek Mythology?===

			With regards to Oedipus trying to avoid the prophecy, one could gain from this story that the harder we try to thwart fate, the more we bring it on. Is this a statement or a question about life? I would pursue the later.

			Can we run from our fate as did Oedipus? Can we change our fate? Perhaps the answer isn't in this play, but in the heart of those who can learn from this story.

			Let us remember that we are brought into this story when it is essentially over. Oedipus has already killed his father and has already slept with his mother. Why the chronology in which it is presented? I believe because we are placed in the presence of difficult moral questions, without the ability to change the course of action before it happens. It is Oedipus's predicament that is so difficult, and causes us to question responsibility and fate if such exists.

			Freud didn't interpret the myth of Oedipus or of Medusa. He interpreted themes he saw in the myths to help explain some of his ideas about the mind. And I think it is important to know the difference.The 'castration complex' could be a different way of saying 'fear of loss of control or independence'. We are involved in an 'exploration of the complexities of human nature rather than reaching a definite conclusion'. This seems to one of the things that myth.

			===Gerome's Napoleon and the Sphinx===
			[[File:napoleon_sphinx.jpg]]

			I think the picture initially seeks to flatter Napoleon and the flatter those who followed and aspired to be a Napoleon. Oidipous had liberated Thebes and Napoleon liberated France. I was slightly put off by the small scale of Napoleon vis-a-vis the whole painting. I would have expected him to be imposing himself on the Sphinx with a heroic expression yet he seems lost in the picture and slightly timid. I understand the alternative view that his small size would make his victory over the Sphinx even more spectacular but then again I do not think Napoleon ever saw himself as the plucky under dog.

			I like the hubris angle. Oidipous figured out the Sphinx's riddle but became over confident in his powers as a great king. Napoleon, too was ultimately brought down by over reaching his abilities to make France the most powerful country in Europe. In the end Oidipous ended up in exile and died so did Napoleon.
			'Not so sure about hybris' - quite right! My thoughts (A Brief Guide to Classical Civilization, p. 177) are along these lines.... Some interpreters of the play do see O's bevaviour as indicative of his hybris, a ‘fatal flaw’ or ‘transgression’ (hamartia in Greek) which justifies his fall, or at least indicates that he is the kind of person who might have committed these crimes even if they had not been fated, but that is really missing the point. A lot of confusion has been caused by Aristotle’s statement[1] that in the best tragedies the tragic action should come about through hamartia. This a word associated with missing the target in archery – it is an error, rather than a character flaw, and it is definitely not anything to do with arrogance. The influence of Shakespearean tragedy has perhaps led too many modern interpreters to see pride (hybris) as the error (hamartia). But this Christianises Greek tragedy in an unhelpful way: hybris is not just an attitude, but is generally externalised into violent or arrogant actions (it was the Greek word for GBH). Pride was an entirely appropriate feeling for an aristocratic male to display; humility was not, and in any case he has already fulfilled his destiny – hence the plague.

	<references />		<references />

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2012-02-27T15:03:28Z

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